Marcus Hart (00:01.134)
Dr. Carter, welcome to the Transform You Live show. So let's kick this thing off. We talked about a slew of things that really resonate with me, and I'm sure that it's going to resonate with the guests. mean, you got an incredible background, a background that most of the audience can say, hey, I've been there. I understand. So your journey from childhood trauma to the military service.
to Vanderbilt, know, doctoring, that's wild, man. You know, what was the moment you realized outdoor therapy was your calling to help Vets heal?
Dr. Carter Check (00:29.962)
you
Dr. Carter Check (00:35.72)
Man, such a great question. think it's something that is important for every person, not just a veteran to have this moment that I believe I had. Let me preface it real quick though. Isolation and loneliness are probably the two worst risk factors that anybody could ever encounter. And the medical model, the scientific medical model, any of the things in that model like depression, anxiety, PTSD.
you know, whatever disorders you can find in the DSM five really are all drivers Marcus to isolation and loneliness, right? And when you think about the non diagnostic side, right? So let's move from the medical model for a second. The things that I believe are the major killers. Okay. And why am I saying killers? I'm a suicide prevention specialist. That's what I do every day. So when I'm talking to veterans on a daily basis,
I'm talking to veterans who have been flagged high risk for suicide. And the way we do that is we do a complete rundown on their chart. And if we see that they are suicidal or the possibility of being suicidal, then we flag them in like a 60 or 90 day flag where we give them a lot more attention than the everyday veteran. Okay. So in that work, the major killers in my opinion are on the non-diagnostic side.
which is why I wanted to become Dr. Carter check because I don't know about you, but I really feel like we can help people stay alive a lot better by doing research and data around things that keep people alive, not things that drive people towards death. Right? So the obstacles that I found markets for this helplessness, hopelessness, unworthiness. Okay. How do you measure those?
Marcus Hart (02:30.912)
Okay.
Dr. Carter Check (02:32.276)
There's no pill for those, right? But these are drivers, know, shame is another one in there too, right? These are drivers into isolation and loneliness. And now not all isolation is bad, just like not all guilt is bad, right? Guilt, guilt lets us know we did something wrong, right? When guilt turns to shame, where it's no longer, man, I wish I hadn't done that, but now because I did that, I'm a terrible person and I'm irredeemable. That's a whole different story.
Marcus Hart (02:45.248)
no it's not
Dr. Carter Check (03:00.35)
But isolation like solitude or getting away, recharging your battery, whatever you want to call that, that's not always bad. When isolation becomes an avoidance tool, that's when it becomes bad, right? But loneliness is a whole different thing. And this would probably be one of the only spots I'll dive into scripture really quick, but I think it's really important. When God created everything in Genesis, he called it good, but there was one thing that displeased him. That man was alone.
Marcus Hart (03:12.664)
Right.
Dr. Carter Check (03:30.738)
Loneliness has been the ultimate risk factor since the creation of mankind, right? And we can take the Bible and completely to dock that out. Loneliness is the worst risk factor, whether you believe in scripture or not, because loneliness is introspective. You can't look across the room and see who's lonely, but you can be surrounded by a hundred thousand people and still feel alone, right? And so when
I felt at my most vulnerable lonely self. It was when I got into a season where I kept trying to encounter my trauma and beat it back with a big stick, right? I think you would agree that trying to remember is worse than actually remembering because we're dealing with the anxiety that we can't forget it and that we keep remembering it. And that's a loop.
Marcus Hart (04:01.838)
Yeah
Dr. Carter Check (04:26.708)
That's like a double spiral loop that people deal with all the time because they're constantly trying to understand why. Why did this happen, right? And our why always keeps us from moving into how, like how can we survive, right? How can we make it to the next day? So for me, the most critical point that came, and this is just coming back to the question that you asked me, right? What's the one thing that I think is the most vital decision?
is deciding not to keep trying to combat what it is and just embrace what it is and deal with it, right? Don't be isolated. Don't get into loneliness. Get community around you because here's one more important thing. We cannot heal by ourselves. We heal in community. We need support systems, right? You go try and do it on yourself. You know, when you're drowning, you don't drown because you get in the river.
Marcus Hart (05:14.59)
Right.
Dr. Carter Check (05:24.744)
You drown by staying in the river, right? And sometimes you just need a rope, somebody to toss you a rope. So that was the most critical moment for me, Marcus, is I stopped trying to beat back my thoughts and beat back my trauma. Like I had a big stick and I'm just gonna knock it out every time it shows up, because that gets exhausting. And I just decided this isn't going anywhere. So I need to learn how to deal with this.
Marcus Hart (05:52.646)
And that's powerful stuff, man. I, my God, it takes me back to when I had to confront childhood trauma, know, combat, you know, moral injury. And, and it took for me to, you know, I had to isolate, but just like the story of Genesis.
We don't know how many days Adam would without, you know, Eve, but at some point God was like, okay, now that you understand, you know, who you are and you know, what your purpose is, let me introduce you to, you know, someone who's going to, you know, like you said, give you.
a better mirror of introspection and it can give you that rope when you need a little hand, a helpmate. So we all are helpmates. It's not just women that got made helpmates, but that's a clear visualization of the importance of community and understanding that we can.
Dr. Carter Check (06:44.564)
Yes.
Marcus Hart (07:01.314)
pull from each other to be able to help live through the toll of like the different things we have experienced. for folks searching, how does military service affect mental health? Like what's one psychological impact that hits vets the hardest and how do you see that in your own life?
Dr. Carter Check (07:22.046)
Yeah, great question. It's the wound you can't see that hurts the most, right? Trauma and moral injury, specifically moral injury, right? When people are like, hey, what's moral injury? It's just real simple. It's a violation of what's right to you. And if people are like, well, what is that an injury to? I would argue that's an injury to whatever you conceptualize as morally healthy. That might contain religious institutions. It might not.
Marcus Hart (07:51.406)
It definitely contains scared rattle. And that's a word that usually gets corrupted with the slogan. it's rattle. It's just echo, echo. Face rattle. Whatever you mean.
Dr. Carter Check (07:51.614)
definitely contains spirituality. And that's a word that usually gets bucketed with religion, but spirituality just at the baseline is whatever gives you meaning, purpose, and values. And so trauma and moral injury aren't always visible, but they shape identity. They shape our relationships and they definitely affect our purpose. And then healing begins when we acknowledge what we carry.
because what we carry has the ability to crush us. I once had a veteran tell me, if my arm was missing, people would know how to talk to me. But because my injury is inside, because my heart's broken, because I've been betrayed, because the injury isn't seen, right? They don't even see it. And that's why moral injury is so isolating, because it hides in plain sight. So just because the wound is invisible,
doesn't mean it's not bleeding. So I would say moral injury, and I would probably bucket that really closely because really moral injury is traumatic grief. It's connected to loss. I would say loss, Marcus, is the common denominator of all traumatic experiences. Like, doesn't matter if you were a car accident, you were sexually assaulted, your dad abused you.
You you found yourself addicted to drugs and alcohol and you were hurting your family. Doesn't matter what the experience. There's a loss component to it. And a lot of times it's disenfranchised grief. Those griefs that don't get named like when you and your spouse lose a baby before it's born. When you have an abusive parent. Like, you know, not all losses get funerals, right? Or ambiguous loss, right? What about the person who
Marcus Hart (09:35.342)
Yeah.
Dr. Carter Check (09:44.35)
You know, there's two types of ambiguous loss. There's one where the person is psychologically absent, but physically present, like an Alzheimer parent, right? You're physically watching. They're physically present, but mentally they're gone. And not only are you losing them every day that you're living with them, there's going to come a day where you physically lose them too. Or what if they're psychologically present, but physically gone? Like.
Marcus Hart (09:53.998)
You're physically locked, they're physically present. But mentally they're gone. And not only are you losing them everyday, but you're living with them. What's gonna come the day when you physically lose them too? What if they're psychologically present, but physically gone? Like kids and people like service members who go out to work, right? Or, you know, situations where...
Dr. Carter Check (10:13.876)
kids of people like service members who go off to war, right? Or, you know, situations where you might lose someone to death by suicide. You know, there's things that people just don't want to talk about, right? They're so stigma related. Nobody wants to talk about it. So it's those wounds that are invisible. The ones that don't bleed, they're like compound fractures of the soul.
but they don't get addressed the same because you don't physically see them bleeding out.
Marcus Hart (10:46.925)
You know, this is a real good segue into, you know, what in a sense is the post-traumatic growth and it's not just the PTSD, you know. There's a difference and your hunt therapy approach, you know, you know, nails down, like, you know, how people can turn pain into purpose, you know. Maybe you can kind of speak to that for me.
Dr. Carter Check (11:13.138)
Absolutely. I'd be missed if I didn't say this because there's definitely going to be people on here who suffer moral injury and they're just figuring this out. They're like, wow, man, you know, yeah, I think I'm suffering from a moral injury. Well, moral injury is a proof that you have a moral compass. You know, it's not a sign of a defect. It's actually a highlight of the best part of you because if you didn't have morals, you wouldn't be hurting.
Right? So always remember that, right? I think that's a radical reframing, but it's so important because moral injury doesn't mean you're broken. It means your values still matter. that you, that validation of pain is evidence of moral clarity, not failure. Right? So as long as you're still here, then you can still figure this out, right? Doesn't matter what hell you've been through. You're operating at a hundred percent success rate right now of still being here.
Marcus Hart (11:56.586)
So as long as you're still here, then you can still figure this out. No matter what home you come from, you're operating at a 100 % success rate right now. But still being successful. Now I don't know about New Yorkers, but don't know about other people who operate at a 100 % rate. But that's a pretty good one to operate at.
Dr. Carter Check (12:08.938)
Now don't know about you Marcus, but I don't know what else anybody operates at 100 % in, but that's a pretty good one to operate at 100 % in, right? I think so. Yeah, it is. And here's the thing about nature. Nature is more than just a backdrop. It's a co-therapist. Outdoor spaces provide safety, they provide perspective, and a sense of belonging that traditional therapy rooms can't always offer.
Marcus Hart (12:16.913)
It is. It's consistent.
Dr. Carter Check (12:37.406)
The wild speaks to the soul in ways words can't. Come on, right? And I've seen a man who hadn't spoken about his deployment in 15 years open up within minutes of walking into the woods with me. The trees became the walls of the safest office we had ever been in. That's because the wild doesn't judge you. It joins you. And that's important. And from the fire ring,
A campfire, intentional acts of remembrance, recommitment to help people integrate their pain into larger stories. Ritual is the missing medicine a lot of times. And I'm talking about ritual like community, being with people. Ritual gives pain a place to go. And that's the most important thing about the outdoors. You always have a place to go with your pain. You don't have to schedule an appointment.
I mean, you know, why are people drawn to sit on the beach, to sit on the side of a cliff, to watch the sun come up, to watch the sun go down, right? To listen to a stream. There's something about nature that calls us to it. And in those moments of isolation that I would say are not bad, we find some of the greatest clarity we've ever found in life. Not from a checkbox. You know, a lot of times,
Marcus Hart (13:52.466)
Yeah.
Dr. Carter Check (14:05.52)
systems of care are checking boxes of symptomology. But the thing that happens, Marcus, is they miss the person. Nature never misses the person because it's you that's engaged with it. So in my work with hunt therapy, I take veterans and first responders out into nature, whether we're river rafting, whether we're, you know, breaking bread, having a meal around a campfire, camping, whether we're hunting or fishing or just forest bathing.
Marcus Hart (14:13.101)
Yeah,
Dr. Carter Check (14:34.92)
And I don't mean taking a bath in the forest, although I think people do that. But just sitting in the woods, right? There's something about just sitting in God's creation that awakens something within us that normal things can't, right? If you ever stood on the top of really high mountain and that perspective of what you see down, you can't help but think, man, this is amazing, right?
Marcus Hart (15:02.537)
Wow, that's real, Carter. That's definitely real. Post-Array, I was definitely lost in my own head. But faith and purpose pulled me through it. it's like, that's like nature for you. Understanding that there's something bigger than chaos. And a lot of times, that's, my audience out there, this transition to civilian life or transition away from
loss or whatever it was that now you have to transition into almost like a rebirth almost you know what do you see like the biggest psychological hurdle you know that people face and how does your work at the VA help them navigate that?
Dr. Carter Check (15:40.596)
Yeah.
Dr. Carter Check (15:51.464)
Yeah, I think you just named it. The biggest loss that's normally the least addressed in any service member is the transition from serving to civilian life. It's like we just go like one day we're locked and loaded and ready to go and then the next day we're civilian. And it's like, how did this happen, right? That is an identity change. It is such a tragic shift, but it's almost like.
It's almost like it's invisible and it's especially invisible to people who have not worn the uniform like me or you have, right? But it's that one thing you go from this consistent, ritualistic lifestyle to, hey, do what you want. And I think that's why a lot of our brothers and sisters end up overweight, loss of purpose, you know? And fortunately, a lot of them kind of get it together, but it's not.
It's not the physical wounds, it's the losses that are so tough to navigate. So what I want to try to remind people in those moments is your story isn't over, it's evolving, right? And the wild reminds us that seasons change just as we do. And no matter how deep the wound, no matter how significant the loss, there's always another chapter waiting to be written.
There's a lot of times, Marcus, I'll be sitting with a vet and I'll be like, look, you got the pen here, grab that pen and you probably have a pen there close to you. So I would say grab that pen or that pencil in front of you and just show it to me real quick. Do you have one? If you don't, don't worry about it. I got mine. But here's the thing. As long as you hold the pen, you get to write how your story ends. Nobody else writes it for you, right? No doctor, no psychologist, no...
Marcus Hart (17:15.845)
Yeah. you know what? Yeah.
Marcus Hart (17:43.758)
psychologist, no grandma, grandpa, no one writes your story better than you can write it. When we relinquish the ability to write our story by taking our lives, by disengaging from society, then we don't get to write our story again, something else does, right? I've watched people wrap out the crowd.
Dr. Carter Check (17:45.406)
Grandma, grandpa, kid, nobody writes your story better than you can write it. But when we relinquish the ability to write our story by taking our life, by disengaging from society, then we don't get to write how the story ends. Somebody else does, right? I've watched people walk out of the wild believing for the first time in years that they had a future. Not because their past changed, but because they realized their story wasn't finished.
Marcus Hart (18:09.741)
Not because they're past change, but because they realize their story doesn't change. And that's what the grounds are, not just that winter isn't the end. It's just the beginning. All right, Carter. So I want to stir up some ex-debates because you mentioned earlier about
Dr. Carter Check (18:15.324)
And that's what the wild reminds us, that winter isn't the end, it's just the season.
Marcus Hart (18:31.541)
Yeah, like the the there some of the therapy approach is like very systematic. OK, and it misses the person, you know. So some say that the VA's mental health system is failing vets. You know, they focus in on meds over real healing like like the outdoor therapy. You know, is that fair or is there a bigger truth about why vets still struggle? I think there's a truth about.
Dr. Carter Check (18:38.26)
Mm-hmm.
Dr. Carter Check (18:54.548)
I think there's a truth to that. Okay, I do think that there's a truth and I'm not going to say this is the VA's issue. I'm going to say this is the medical model issue because you can't go after symptoms. Look, let's think about Tylenol for a second. And research has shown us Tylenol is probably one of the worst things we could ever give our kids, right? And I'm going to say I'm guilty because I've had kids in different generations. So I had kids, you know, I've got kids that are, I've got one that's 25.
Marcus Hart (18:59.341)
Yeah
Dr. Carter Check (19:24.042)
24, 22, 16, and one that's almost three. Do you know I've never given my three-year-old ibuprofen or Tylenol? I've let the fever run its course. Now, I'm not saying I wouldn't if it was in a dangerous situation, but man, the second my older kids showed fever, man, I'm giving them medicine like that. And that is the problem. Maybe it's generational, maybe it's the medical model.
Maybe it's just people trying to make money. I don't know, but what I can tell you is that when our first move is to deal with a symptom and we miss the person, that is the most dangerous move we can make. So the thing is, we don't want to treat symptoms. We want to deal with the root of the wound. And a lot of times, medications just numb emotional pain. They might quiet nightmares.
Marcus Hart (19:55.752)
Yeah
Dr. Carter Check (20:17.726)
and they might help regulate mood, but they don't address the cause of moral injury. They don't address the cause of adverse childhood experiences. They don't address the cause of trauma or deep grief, right? And for moral injury, especially, the wound is in the realm of meaning, identity, and even ethics. So it's not chemistry alone. Like what pill do you give to somebody who's feeling shame, who's feeling helpless, who's feeling unworthy?
Like, please let me know where that pill is because maybe some people need to take that one. But it doesn't exist. But I promise you, Marcus, I bet you my next paycheck that more people today are going to take their life because of those reasons and not anxiety or depression. Because look, I was a Cav Scout, man. I am high anxious. I am always when I'm out in public, I know where all the exits are. I'm putting my back to a wall. I'm hyper vigilant.
Okay, but I have meaning and purpose and that stuff doesn't own me. That's just something I got to deal with. It's like Paul's thorn in the flesh, right? I've got it, but I am surviving not because of saying it doesn't exist, but knowing that I have power over that, right? A lot of times medication can delay true healing, right?
meds can become a long-term crutch and not a bridge to wellness. Here's a great example. I work with lot of veterans, survivors of military sexual trauma, females and males, Females and males. And a lot of times their biggest issue is safety, right? And so I think we would all say that we understand where someone who has been violated in that way would want to isolate.
Marcus Hart (21:57.966)
Okay.
Dr. Carter Check (22:16.424)
right, would want to create a box and in that box have to learn how to deal with society again. And nobody would question it, right? If they didn't want to be around other men or other women, right? Nobody would question that. But when your box turns from what is safety to you to now what's harming you, that's a whole different thing. And so let me bring this up because I think it's so important.
I really believe we need to do a better job about deconstructing people's language. Because if I come to you with a language that I feel like you need to follow, well, I'm not adapting to your language. I'm not listening to you, right? And there's a word we use around medical models that I think is one of the most misunderstood and worst words that we use in the medical model. Are you ready for this? Trigger.
Marcus Hart (22:50.221)
Yeah
Dr. Carter Check (23:13.798)
What's your trigger? Now here's the thing. I could line up a thousand veterans outside the medical center and ask them, what's your trigger? And almost every single one of them, if not every one of them, is going to give me something negative. But are all triggers negative? No, they're not. But in medical models, we always talk about triggers in the negative sense.
Marcus Hart (23:18.733)
outside the medical center and ask them what's your trigger. And almost every single one of them, if not every one of them, is going to give me something negative. But are all triggers negative? No, they don't have to be. No, they're not. But in medical models, we always talk about triggers in the negative sense. So if we create that, how are we creating an environment for people to be in if every time we talk about a trigger...
Dr. Carter Check (23:39.186)
So if we create that, are we creating an environment for people to heal if every time we talk about a trigger, it's something negative? Because I'm going tell you right now, when my baby girl said goodbye to me this morning, that was a positive trigger for me. This cup of coffee right now, positive trigger for me. Me sitting here talking to you about this stuff, super positive trigger. But if we leave people in the box of where triggers are always negative, where do they go?
Marcus Hart (23:55.854)
Exactly. You're cooking, Cardiff. You're definitely cooking, brother. You're cooking. And man, that trigger. man, that's something that I'm going to think more about.
Dr. Carter Check (24:12.788)
Come on!
Marcus Hart (24:24.459)
You know, I got, I think I made a mistake myself by only looking at like the negative triggers instead of like, okay, you know, what's something that triggers, you know, positive action, you know, or, you know, or positive feelings. And, you know, there was a sermon that I listened to recently that, that said that, you know, you can be happy, you know, and you can find happiness, you know, fairly easily, but joy, you know, joy comes from something much, you know,
much more invisible, more, you know, spiritual on a spiritual level. And, you know, and as I was listening to you, that's what I was thinking about, you know.
Dr. Carter Check (24:59.23)
Mm-hmm.
Marcus Hart (25:03.501)
That's why I want to shift to faith too. Faith really shaped leadership and it helps us overcome adversity in and out of the uniform. You being a chaplain with a theological lens on suffering, how did faith, your shameless Jesus love, as I call it, help you find purpose after moral injury? What's one way faith shaped stronger leaders?
Dr. Carter Check (25:28.798)
Yeah, you know what? A lot of times I think we ignore the power of relationship. We ignore the power of ritual and environment. And a lot of veterans, and let's just say humans, right, benefit far more from integrative approaches like nature-based therapy, group connection, rituals of remembrance, spiritual care. And I'm talking about spiritual care, what meaning, purpose, values, right?
serving other people instead of always wanting to be served, right? Man, I tell you, and I'm sure you can agree with this, being singular minded is always dangerous. When you can be plural minded, even when you're dealing with your own stuff, when you can help other people through some of their stuff, even though you're wounded, man, it provides like healing to your wounds, you know, when you can help others.
I think probably the most important thing as a clinical chaplain that I do is I help people figure out why they're resilient. What are their protective factors? What are the things in their life that make them resilient? Right? Because the question isn't, are you going to go through problems? The question is, when you go through problems, what are you going to do? And here is the most important word.
that I could probably say, whether if we were talking Christian theology, know, religious theology or just common sense purpose. When people are connected to purpose in their life, it's almost like they have the ability to walk through problems like they don't exist. It's not that they don't have problems. Look, we all got them. We all have problems. But you show me someone who's connected to purpose.
Marcus Hart (27:07.341)
When people are connected to purposes of our lives, it's almost like they have the ability to work through problems like they don't exist. It's not that we don't have problems, but we all have problems. We all have problems.
Dr. Carter Check (27:24.722)
and I'll show you someone who has the ability to walk through problems almost like they don't exist. You show me someone who lacks purpose and I'll show you someone who's probably thinking about ending their life or why they shouldn't be connected. Look, Marcus, when people die by suicide, I honestly believe that aside from a murder suicide, somebody who kills people and then takes their own life, I believe the person who died
Marcus Hart (27:52.538)
I believe the person who dies by suicide really feels like they're jumping out of their day, saving everybody's life.
Dr. Carter Check (27:54.538)
dies by suicide really feels like they're jumping on a grenade saving everybody else from the blast. Now I don't believe that's true, you know, and I have seen the effects of that. As a matter of fact, statistically, suicide survivors, those that are left after somebody has died by suicide are 175 % more likely to die by suicide. That is
staggering. But here is something. I know when I say the word stronghold, you have an idea of what I'm talking about. And for those who are listening who are Christians, Demonic strongholds are not the worst strongholds. They're actually, when you know who you are in Christ, the devil is nothing. Like demons are nothing. You can just swat them like a fly. The worst strongholds
are systems of thought built upon emotions. Those many times are stronger than actual bars, right? And when our emotions get so strong that they start to build systems of thought where we feel like we're alone, we feel like it's God's fault, we feel like nobody loves us, right? Then shame starts to take such a stronghold in our life and move us
further and further and further. You know, I had a I had a group recently with one of the moral injury group and I had a veteran in there who his moral injury was when he was back in Iraq. He had to drive through a group of kids with his Humvee and he ran many of them over. Okay. And in group, this is what he was processing. Now what I'm about to say, I don't
Marcus Hart (29:33.102)
And this moral injury was, human capital rise. We had to drive through a group of kids with a drug use. And in group, this is what you process. Now, what I'm about to say, I wouldn't tell any clinician out there to do this unless you're completely moral capital experienced. You don't know what I mean by
Dr. Carter Check (29:52.17)
I wouldn't tell any clinician out there to do this unless you're completely led by the Holy Spirit. If you don't know what I mean by that, then just let that go through one ear and right out the other. But you have to follow God in this specific situation. But I usually run like a 14 week ongoing group, right? And so this is like week eight. So I've been with this guy for like eight weeks, an hour and a half a week. OK, so it's not like we just met. This is like someone who
We have built trust, they trust me, I'm companioning them, we're walking through and talking through some stuff. And he says again, about being a kid killer. And so let's just say his name's Steve. I said, Steve, I tell you what, after group today, we're gonna go get my truck, you're gonna drive, we're gonna go down to the schoolyard and we're just gonna start running over kids. And he looked at me like I was crazy, just like anybody would, right? And he goes,
What? I said, yeah, you're a kid killer. Let's just go start running over some kids. He goes, I'm not a kid killer. I said, that's exactly right. You're not a kid killer. You just had to run over some kids. I said, say it again. He said, I'm not a kid killer. I said, say it again. He said, I'm not a kid killer. And he started bawling, right? Sometimes we just need to remind people of what they're not. Now I'll tell you why this was such a struggle with him, Marcus, because those kids that he had to run over.
They were the same age as his grandkids. And so when he would spend time with his grandkids, which are super important to him, not only was that like his ultimate source of strength, it was also the ultimate source of like bringing him down. Like he could only stay with him for so long because he felt like I'm gonna hurt one of my grandkids. And you know as well as I do, this guy would never hurt one of his grandkids, right? That's that system of thought that we build upon emotion.
that we've got to attack just like someone tried to kidnap one of our kids or pickpocket our wallet. Maybe there's some people out there who let somebody just grab their wallet and go. I'm not that guy. I don't think you are.
Marcus Hart (32:04.782)
I love that. I really love that so much and man.
that approach, that's a real more injury approach to teach vets to better lead with purpose, especially when they wrestling with guilt or shame from service. And that leads to people wanna know how to lead with integrity.
And what is ethical leadership? So that resonates. Let's get spicy, man. This might spark some TikTok buzz, hopefully. Some argue faith has no place in leadership. And that is too personal, too divisive. You build a career of blending faith and resilience. Why is that powerful for veterans stepping into civilian roles?
Dr. Carter Check (32:36.97)
Come on.
Dr. Carter Check (32:44.458)
Come on.
Dr. Carter Check (33:02.954)
So here's my take on that.
Dr. Carter Check (33:08.5)
Faith has place in leadership as long as the faith doesn't come out like I know better than you. Okay? I'm thinking about the story when Jesus is encountering the woman caught in the act of adultery and they drag her out in front of him. Now some theologians argue she was naked. Okay? Maybe she was. Maybe she wasn't.
But I can promise you anybody who is drug out into an arena or wherever she was and everybody's standing around in rocks ready to stone you to death, that is trauma. You're thinking all your first of all, you're thinking I'm about to die. There you can't even comprehend what's going through that person's head in that moment, right? But Jesus does something that is so amazing in as far as how I look at
Marcus Hart (33:54.478)
I'm saying we can't remember knowing who that person was. But Jesus was something else.
Dr. Carter Check (34:06.088)
He goes over and his posture is he gets down where she is. Now, I've heard a thousand preachers, Marcus, talk about what Jesus was scribbling in the sand. Okay. I mean, I've heard as sermon after sermon and that's not the focus of this because I'm going to tell you what I'm not about to tell you what he was scribbling in the sand. Okay. I don't know. Just like none of them know, but here's what I do know. Whatever he was scribbling was for her.
Because I promise you as a father, if I go down and kneel next to one of my children who's hurting and suffering, I'm not about to start writing a message in the sand for the crowd. I'm speaking to her. I had a veteran one time who came to my moral injury group who showed up in a wheelchair. And I'll never forget the first day he showed up. He had his three year old daughter and her name was Grace. And he's wheeling himself, Marcus.
Okay, onto the elevator and Grace is sitting in his lap. Grace didn't care if he was in a wheelchair or not. This is her daddy, right? And man, you could tell he loved this little girl and that she loved him. And to be honest, in that moment, I thought to myself, that would be a major trigger in his life to keep him alive. Now, remember, said I do these groups for like 14, 15 weeks at a time sometimes, right? So about eight, nine weeks in,
I had one person in the room who said if you don't have Jesus in your life, you're never gonna make it through this and I'm not gonna say I don't believe that as a Christian But in that setting that's not what somebody needs to hear. Okay? Because there's a lot of people sitting at that table that didn't don't want to believe in Jesus, you know They've been hurt in church and the last thing if you've been hurt by religious institutions. Do you want to hear that's the only way?
Marcus Hart (35:36.558)
Jesus in your life, you're never gonna make it through this. And I'm not gonna say I don't believe that, as a Christian.
in that setting, that's not what somebody needed to Because there's a lot of people sitting at that table that don't want to believe in this. They've been hurt in church. Last thing if you've been hurt by religious institutions, that's the only way to get deliverance, to get health and to get victory, right? And so I remember saying that I was specifically a I really appreciate your view.
Dr. Carter Check (36:02.506)
To get deliverance to get healthy to get victory, right? And so I remember saying to that specific individual man I really appreciate your your your strong stance and faith and I said, you know, how long did it take you to get to that place? He said man took me like 20 years I mean, I really struggled with it. I was like, okay I said so when you were in that 20 year period you had people show up and be like hey if you don't have Jesus You're not gonna make it. How did that?
How did that, how'd you react to that? He goes, man, I hated those people. I'm sitting there thinking to myself, are you listening to yourself? Right? And then I think it clicked. But I looked across the table at this guy who was in the wheelchair who had grace, right? And I could tell that he visibly was, was had an issue with that. And I said, what do you want to say about that? He goes, man, I hate that. He goes, I hate when people try and tell you God this and God that, you know, blah, blah, blah. We'll come to find out.
He was really close to killing himself. He came into this group because it was his last ditch effort to try and find some type of forward motion. He had even denied back surgery because he's like, if I'm gonna kill myself, why am I gonna go through back surgery, right? So in that moment, I asked him, I said, look, I wanna ask you a question. Just kinda humor me here. I said, let's say it's,
eight years from now, you're in the kitchen, you're making a peanut butter and jelly sandwich and Grace walks in. And you can tell she's downtrodden. Like she's, there's something visibly wrong with her. She's a little girl, so you know, right? And it's something connected to shame where she's not real sure she wants to talk to you about it, but she's in your space because you're safe, you're dad, right? And you recognize it because you're a dad. And you're like, hey, Grace, what's going on? She starts to tell you.
about the boys at school teasing her about how she's too skinny, not pretty, too chunky, know, her teeth are messed up or whatever that looks like, right? I said, after you thought about all the crazy ways you were gonna torture these boys, what would you say to her?
Dr. Carter Check (38:17.49)
And he paused for a second and he said, I'd tell her that other people don't determine your worth, that I love you and your mom loves you and you're special to us and you're special, you know, that you're gonna be amazing and I can't wait to see what happens with you in your life. And I was like, wow. I said, yeah. Yeah, I said, I agree with that. I said, let me ask you a question. This is my last question. said, I would agree that everything you just said was like unfiltered.
unadulterated, like pure love, right? And he's like, yeah, yeah. I said, so if that can flow through you, how does that flow to you?
and he sat back in his wheelchair and he had an epiphany. And I think for the first time in a long time, he realized God loved him just like he loved his little girl. And I watched him go through that group, get back surgery, end up in the gym in a completely different person from that one moment of just realizing God loves me.
and is for me and wants me to prosper. And I don't mean about having a big bank account in the Cadillac in your driveway, right? I mean, he wants me to be whole. And I think what I love the most about the work that I do is just having those moments with people where, you know, if you take the word treat patients,
Remember we're talking about medical models on a treat patients, right? How many times you hear that I'm going to treat the patient The word treat in Latin means to drag and a patient is a passive long-term sufferer So if my goal when I meet you Marcus is to treat you to fix you in essence I'm dragging along a passive long-term sufferer and I don't know about you, but that doesn't sound very empowering does it? No, but if you take the word companion, which you heard me say earlier I companion people
Dr. Carter Check (40:24.178)
and I'm married to a Latina, so. The word calm is with, pan is bread. So it's like sitting with equals breaking bread. Now, I imagine you've had a few leaders in your life, right? Which leaders did you prefer? The ones who sat across the desk from you or the ones who came around the desk to sit with you?
Marcus Hart (40:43.701)
Yeah, those ones who was on the front lines with me. Yeah, exactly.
Dr. Carter Check (40:49.566)
Come on. And so that's the type of leadership that God brings into our life. It's not across the desk telling you what's wrong. You better do this, do that, that. That's the mindset a lot of people think relationship with God is, right? It's this taskmaster just waiting for us to screw up, waiting to whip us with the bullwhip and just always looking for our mistakes. But it's not. It's that posture of getting where we are, right? And in my life, because I've needed that,
And because I've seen that work time and time again, I prefer to get where people are. So when I write, when I speak, I really use this one shot mentality because it might be the only time I get an opportunity to talk to you. So I'm going to diffuse it improvised explosive devices right off the bat. I don't have some predetermined journey. I think you need to go on. I'm going to companion you, which means
Marcus Hart (41:44.686)
Which means I'm going to work with you because you need to be the expert of your own life. And I lean into God from the time that I spend in the secret place. We can do a one to five job together. In the secret place is where you learn strategy. It's where you learn about rules. It's where you learn, not in the noise. If you try to learn about the voice of the noise.
Dr. Carter Check (41:45.394)
I'm gonna walk with you because you need to be the expert of your own life. And I lean into God from the time that I spend in the secret place. And we can do another podcast on that one, okay? In the secret place is where you learn strategy. It's where you learn God's voice. It's where you learn, not in the noise. If you try to learn God's voice in the noise, you are never gonna hear it. It's in the secret place that we learn it. And it's those moments.
that I really hear the Spirit of God say things like, ask him this about while he's making a sandwich. Ask the person about going to run over kids. It's not something you learn in a classroom. And I think you would agree, look, we can go to business school and we can get a business degree from people who have never owned or operated a business. But when I go to this right here,
and I read and I get strategy or a lesson, there's always a demonstration of the lesson. So I'm not learning from someone who hasn't never done it. I'm learning from someone who can give me something practical to use. And so when I write in every chapter, I give a practical tool and takeaway and a ritual of remembrance. Now, if anybody who reads this book is never going to read something that it
There's not a lot of scripture at all in this book, but there's a lot of practical tools and takeaways like breath work, mindfulness. You know, probably one of the most impactful things if I can, Marcus, is I want to teach you something that I do almost every time I speak to a group of people. Okay, so we're going to count to 10, me and you out loud, right? We're going to count to three audibly. And when we get to four,
Marcus Hart (43:17.897)
I want to teach you something that I do almost every time I speak to a group of people. Okay?
Okay.
Dr. Carter Check (43:40.99)
We're no longer going to audibly say four out of our mouth. We're going to start thinking in our head. It's going to be four, five, six, right? So out loud, one, two, three. When we get to four, we're going to count in our head, not audibly. And before we get to 10, I'm going to ask you a question that you know the answer to. This is not a trick. You know the answer to it. And when I ask you, I want you to audibly say the answer to that question. Can you do that? All right. Are you ready? Here we go.
Marcus Hart (44:06.895)
One two three Marcus
Dr. Carter Check (44:11.786)
One, two, three.
What's your name?
What happened to the counting, Marcus? It stopped. Because whatever comes out of your mouth will always silence what's in your head.
Marcus Hart (44:34.464)
Wow.
Dr. Carter Check (44:35.614)
So when you have those ants, those automatic negative thoughts, those thoughts about you're a piece of crap, you're a terrible dad, you're a terrible mom, you're never gonna be anything, you should have blown your brains out last week, go hang yourself, it doesn't matter what it is, those negative thoughts, the only way you'll ever stop those loops is you have to speak something out of your mouth that counteracts that.
Marcus Hart (44:58.913)
That's, man, that's legit. That's definitely legit. And we can get more of those type of things in your book, Tell us the name of the book before I ask you this last question and where people can find it.
Dr. Carter Check (45:09.427)
Absolutely.
Dr. Carter Check (45:13.054)
Yep. Yep. It's called Healing in the Wild. You can find it on Amazon. It's on every audio platform except Audible right now. It came in out in the middle of May. It's an Amazon bestseller. And all you're going to find in there is practical tools and takeaways on how outdoor therapy helps break the cycle of trauma in your life. Whether that's
rock climbing, finding rocks, drinking coffee on your back porch. I think the good Lord has gifted me the ability to walk with people in such a way where I'm not talking down to you and I'm not talking to you like you better listen to me. I'm just talking. And if you'll just go on a walk or a journey with me, maybe you just might hear or learn a couple of tools that can help you.
in the wilderness of your grief, because the reality is this, grief is as individualistic as our thumbprint. It wouldn't matter if we were in the same experience, we would experience it differently, which means we experience loss differently. So when you hear people say things like, time heals all wounds, come on, there's not a greater lie. And when you hear people say things like, man, I know exactly how you feel, no, you don't, because you're not me.
And I'm not trying to speak against people. When people say that, it's coming from a good place. They're trying to connect with you, right? But you could be a husband and a wife who's lost a child and you're going to experience it differently. So I think what I would say is have patience, have patience with yourself, have patience with the people around you. As we navigate losses in our lives, we need other people. We are not designed to do it alone.
So if you can't get into an office or a good therapist or a pastor or a clinical psychologist or anybody, man, just go on a walk with me. Let's let the wild do the work.
Marcus Hart (47:23.339)
I love that, I love that, you know, and people always seem to, you I don't want to say always, but a lot of people say, you know, that vets are broken by service and, you know, they're too damaged to lead in civilian life. And I'm hearing, you know, how you can prove this otherwise, you know, this might light up X, you know, you'll work with like real and hunt,
Dr. Carter Check (47:49.865)
Mm-hmm.
Marcus Hart (47:53.256)
hunt therapy, definitely proves that. So what's the biggest myth about veteran resilience and why is it so dangerous to believe it?
Dr. Carter Check (48:04.926)
Because I think the deception is that we're allowing other people to write our story. Yes, service changes you. That's inevitable. And for some, those changes can feel like damage because you've seen, you've done, and you've carried things that collide with your values.
But I don't believe the core of you is broken beyond repair.
The experiences may have left wounds, but the wounds can heal. And my work is about helping people see that what's been injured doesn't have to define the rest of your story. So when you walk with me, that's what you're gonna hear. That service can wound you, but it doesn't get to define you. Healing is still possible. I always say you're still here, and if you're still here,
you get to write how your story ends.
Marcus Hart (49:12.781)
Thank you so much, Carter. You've given us a roadmap today from come back to calling, proof that veterans can turn pain into purpose. What you're doing with hunt therapy and real, the work there has changed our lives. I'm so happy to have brought you on today. It's really...
you know, refreshing to hear some of the things that came out your mouth and like, you know, how we can just put these things into practical action right away, you practical tips for practical action. You you put a lot of that in there. You just spilled a lot of like, you know, myths that most people come up with their heads. And, I don't know where to get this stuff from, but, you know, they just come up with it and, you know, especially with the trigger thing, you know, like, you know, that being only used for negative connotation.
when we can just embrace some of the positive triggers and focus more on those. even with being able to audibly speak against what's happening in your head, it's powerful, man. I would love to have you back again, and I would love for you to.
just continue to do what you're doing. And if there's anything that we can do over here transforming you, just let us know.
Dr. Carter Check (50:35.758)
I really appreciate that. Look, was an honor to be with you, an honor to be with your audience. And if I have any agenda, it's not to sell a book. My agenda is I hope that what we discussed, me and you today, Marcus, helps someone make it to tomorrow. Because if you can make it to tomorrow, that should just remind you that you can make it to the next day. And then you know what? Make it to the next day.
Marcus Hart (51:01.74)
Yeah. I love it. You know, so we're in it right there. know, ladies and gentlemen, Dr. Carter check.
Dr. Carter Check (51:03.848)
and then make it to the next day. And what's happening is you're just stacking small wins, but small wins over a long period of time turn into big wins. And I just want to see people win. That's all I want to see.
